Beth- For what it's worth I didn't take your comments as directed towards me. I think this will be, and should be, an honest and at times even a raucous conversation. Though I will disagree somewhat that "staying" is hardly facing anything. It is itself an escape. Or can be and frequently is. But either way, I don't see staying or remain…
For what it's worth I didn't take your comments as directed towards me. I think this will be, and should be, an honest and at times even a raucous conversation. Though I will disagree somewhat that "staying" is hardly facing anything. It is itself an escape. Or can be and frequently is. But either way, I don't see staying or remaining in terms of escape but rather of trying to find a deeper more fully alive way of being in the world. To connect rather than disconnect. Even if it is difficult.
I don't know what that is exactly, and I have no delusions that there is some utopian solution--nor am I advocating for any kind of brute survivalism. I just think the standard worldly way has become so poisonous to our souls and well-being that it is worth seeking a different way, even if it fails completely.
How others want to do that--or not do that--is of course up to them. But there are people out there doing it, figuring it out. I would like to be part of that in whatever small way I can. I've lived in the world and it isn't an exaggeration to say it nearly killed me. It was miserable.
To put it more succinctly, I would rather spend whatever time I have left on the margins of the worldly life than smack dab in the center of it. Maybe it is an escape, and maybe the hordes will come and destroy whatever one builds. But is that really all that important? Is that enough to stop anyone from trying? Who knows how all this will go. I don't.
Anyway, the beautiful thing is that you are an obviously intelligent human being and I trust you will do as you see best. I will do the same. There is no need to convince anybody of anything. Though conversations such as these, even on the internet, can be very useful to the degree they remain fruitful.
I think we are talking about two very different things.
The kind of “staying” I’m talking about is the opposite of escaping the world - it is about following Christ into the depths of it - into the midst of the fray and helping who ever He brings into our life - in what ever way we can.
Look, I agree that the world is dark, getting darker and will destroy us if we try to face it on our own and in our own strength. If this is where we are coming from it makes perfect sense to head to the hills and pray we can survive it.
But if we claim to be Christian’s - that is followers of Christ - we really need to spend some serious time in the gospels. We have got to internalize His words to us - because he has given us very explicit instructions on how to live our lives and promises that enable us to do so.
The bottom line is that we are His hands and feet in our time and place. We are called to do His work among the least of these - the people who are facing all the ugliness we are talking about leaving - with no hope of escape. And what they need is to see is the reality of a life lived in and with Christ - so they too can believe and be changed. If we are gone who will be there to show them God really exists?
We also need to focus on his promises ( because we can not do this in our own strength) he has given us the Holy Spirit, the sacraments and the church to be with us and help us - and he has said that He, himself will be with us- even to the end of the age. We are not to act alone but under His direction, in His power and with His help.
Then we too can say:
“ I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me”
Philippians 4:13
Not relying on our own abilities but on his.
The “what would Jesus do” trope has been over used -but it might be useful in this discussion. Can you see Jesus gathering up the disciples and heading out to the wilderness while they “ ride out the storm” or would he be right there, in the cities, in the thick of it, helping whoever came to them?
I think the call to us is clear but many do not want to see or hear this - to take on this challenge. And for good reason - To do so is going to require some serious effort on our part. We have to build strong spiritual muscles which will require some self denial and a whole lot of spiritual discipline. We can start with prayer, fasting and alms giving - reading both scripture and the church fathers as well as participating in the sacraments- then we will be on the right road. And with Gods grace and a willing heart we will progress much quicker than we imagine.
This is all deadly serious stuff and I fear that we risk deluding ourselves with this very attractive and lovely idea - this wild Christianity.
Who wouldn’t jump at the chance to escape it all. But it (for all the reasons discussed in my last post) really is just a mirage for most of us.
And one could ask “ what is the harm of exploring it, discussing and dreaming about it?” Well -the time we spend occupying our minds and emotions with this “idea” prevents us from doing the spiritual work we need to do to be prepared for what may be coming - so we can be used by God to help others .
Hey I would way rather explore wildness properties and imagine developing them than follow a prayer rule or go to confession…sigh!
We do not know what the future holds - but it does not look promising.
What we do have is Christs words and they should give us pause:
“ for whoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake and the gospels, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul.” Mark8: 34-38
May the Lord enlighten our minds and direct our hands - Beth
That's a clarion call that's very hard to contradict, much as our instincts might be to put our fingers in our ears and go "lalala, not listening"!
I'm very much new to this but it seems to me that what you suggest is very much the path that stays true to Christ's calling. To help others through acts of kindness but more importantly to show through our actions that to follow God's will is the way through this mess.
Thanks for your wise words Beth , you've articulated it very, very well indeed.
Beth-
For what it's worth I didn't take your comments as directed towards me. I think this will be, and should be, an honest and at times even a raucous conversation. Though I will disagree somewhat that "staying" is hardly facing anything. It is itself an escape. Or can be and frequently is. But either way, I don't see staying or remaining in terms of escape but rather of trying to find a deeper more fully alive way of being in the world. To connect rather than disconnect. Even if it is difficult.
I don't know what that is exactly, and I have no delusions that there is some utopian solution--nor am I advocating for any kind of brute survivalism. I just think the standard worldly way has become so poisonous to our souls and well-being that it is worth seeking a different way, even if it fails completely.
How others want to do that--or not do that--is of course up to them. But there are people out there doing it, figuring it out. I would like to be part of that in whatever small way I can. I've lived in the world and it isn't an exaggeration to say it nearly killed me. It was miserable.
To put it more succinctly, I would rather spend whatever time I have left on the margins of the worldly life than smack dab in the center of it. Maybe it is an escape, and maybe the hordes will come and destroy whatever one builds. But is that really all that important? Is that enough to stop anyone from trying? Who knows how all this will go. I don't.
Anyway, the beautiful thing is that you are an obviously intelligent human being and I trust you will do as you see best. I will do the same. There is no need to convince anybody of anything. Though conversations such as these, even on the internet, can be very useful to the degree they remain fruitful.
I hope you are well. -Jack
Hi Jack,
I think we are talking about two very different things.
The kind of “staying” I’m talking about is the opposite of escaping the world - it is about following Christ into the depths of it - into the midst of the fray and helping who ever He brings into our life - in what ever way we can.
Look, I agree that the world is dark, getting darker and will destroy us if we try to face it on our own and in our own strength. If this is where we are coming from it makes perfect sense to head to the hills and pray we can survive it.
But if we claim to be Christian’s - that is followers of Christ - we really need to spend some serious time in the gospels. We have got to internalize His words to us - because he has given us very explicit instructions on how to live our lives and promises that enable us to do so.
The bottom line is that we are His hands and feet in our time and place. We are called to do His work among the least of these - the people who are facing all the ugliness we are talking about leaving - with no hope of escape. And what they need is to see is the reality of a life lived in and with Christ - so they too can believe and be changed. If we are gone who will be there to show them God really exists?
We also need to focus on his promises ( because we can not do this in our own strength) he has given us the Holy Spirit, the sacraments and the church to be with us and help us - and he has said that He, himself will be with us- even to the end of the age. We are not to act alone but under His direction, in His power and with His help.
Then we too can say:
“ I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me”
Philippians 4:13
Not relying on our own abilities but on his.
The “what would Jesus do” trope has been over used -but it might be useful in this discussion. Can you see Jesus gathering up the disciples and heading out to the wilderness while they “ ride out the storm” or would he be right there, in the cities, in the thick of it, helping whoever came to them?
I think the call to us is clear but many do not want to see or hear this - to take on this challenge. And for good reason - To do so is going to require some serious effort on our part. We have to build strong spiritual muscles which will require some self denial and a whole lot of spiritual discipline. We can start with prayer, fasting and alms giving - reading both scripture and the church fathers as well as participating in the sacraments- then we will be on the right road. And with Gods grace and a willing heart we will progress much quicker than we imagine.
This is all deadly serious stuff and I fear that we risk deluding ourselves with this very attractive and lovely idea - this wild Christianity.
Who wouldn’t jump at the chance to escape it all. But it (for all the reasons discussed in my last post) really is just a mirage for most of us.
And one could ask “ what is the harm of exploring it, discussing and dreaming about it?” Well -the time we spend occupying our minds and emotions with this “idea” prevents us from doing the spiritual work we need to do to be prepared for what may be coming - so we can be used by God to help others .
Hey I would way rather explore wildness properties and imagine developing them than follow a prayer rule or go to confession…sigh!
We do not know what the future holds - but it does not look promising.
What we do have is Christs words and they should give us pause:
“ for whoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake and the gospels, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul.” Mark8: 34-38
May the Lord enlighten our minds and direct our hands - Beth
Beth
That's a clarion call that's very hard to contradict, much as our instincts might be to put our fingers in our ears and go "lalala, not listening"!
I'm very much new to this but it seems to me that what you suggest is very much the path that stays true to Christ's calling. To help others through acts of kindness but more importantly to show through our actions that to follow God's will is the way through this mess.
Thanks for your wise words Beth , you've articulated it very, very well indeed.