DPT- I have heard of Distant Neighbors. I would like to read it. I have read both Snyder and Berry for a while, so it would be interesting to see what they would have to say to one another. Thank you for the reminder. As for Retrosuburbia, I will have to find it at a library as it currently goes for a pretty penny on Amazon. -Jack
DPT- I have heard of Distant Neighbors. I would like to read it. I have read both Snyder and Berry for a while, so it would be interesting to see what they would have to say to one another. Thank you for the reminder.
As for Retrosuburbia, I will have to find it at a library as it currently goes for a pretty penny on Amazon.
You don't have to buy the book.... I have it and it is technical. You can easily get the outline of his ideas from interviews and video presentations if you are curious. here is a page with many links: https://retrosuburbia.com/media/
I've been involved in permaculture groups where i live for years. It is far healthier than "regular" suburban life but also it is not catching on and losing ground to the machine all the time. I believe the fact is, as you and many have been writing, this must be cored around a spiritual center. We don't have that here.... not now, not within the permaculture-oriented groups. To actually hold ground against "for profit" projects would be revolutionary, to actually produce a significant portion of our food would be miraculous. Holmgren talks about this vision spreading as economic collapse sets in.... people cannot be convinced to do anything at scale until they have no other options. That may be the bottom line.
Though I have never been a part of permaculture groups, etc., what you are saying is consistent with what I have seen in other contexts. It interests me to try and dig further into the psychology of it, though even so, I might not get all that deep. The philosophy of the machine goes deep and motivates us even when we don't think it is. It is a constant struggle to get out of its gravitational pull. My own caffeine intake being one small instance of it and the assumption of continual productivity.
But as options narrow having a more fully articulated vision may become more attractive to those who may dismiss it now. "Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he". In that I see all of our various attempts to do so as worthwhile. Mustard seeds. I don't know. It's the best I've got.
Thank you for the link. As someone who has spent far too many years of his life in suburbia, and knowing the pleasant wasteland that it often can be, the idea of transforming it into a garden is very appealing. Maybe that's fanciful, given the current mindset and zoning laws. But who knows?
without getting into a long story, my husband and I have been involved the town politics level. He applied for a position on the planning board because one opened up and someone suggested he should. The selectmen have to appoint members. One particular selectman was adamant about keeping Sandy off the board and he spluttered about why, but his final, clinching statement was, "He's against growth!!". That pretty much disqualifies him as a 'serious person'. The zoning in my town will not be changed for the better, but only to allow the machine to gobble up more. They are currently pushing for something called "smart growth" and High density housing development. They will say all the right things about walkable communities, town centers, and green belts.... but in practice it is just helping the developers take more. We have given up on the idea of influencing at that level... although many people agreed with us those who hold power are not about to let go of lucrative opportunitites. Sorry to vent so much gloom. I really put a lot of energy into this stuff and I'm still a little bitter.
You are already aware of this, I imagine, but the whole growth mania is a Ponzi scheme. Once started they are unable to turn it off lest the whole thing collapse. Which it will anyway, but later, when the politicians who caused it have long left the scene. As far as I can tell, this is happening on all levels.
Which is why I believe the only plausible response is to get out, if one can. Start to build something anti-fragile to survive it. The suburbs as they stand now don't stand a chance at surviving. Perhaps the whole transition out of growth mania won't be Leibowitzian, or the Road, but it will probably be more than a little bit rough.
I say this, of course, as someone without any real skills and no capital to my name to start such an endeavor. It's Way of the Pilgrim time for me!! :)
oh, I am hardly a pollyanna about all of this. I saw the same type of thing happen in Boulder. Anytime they affix "smart" in front of something it's time to brace for something really dumb. Boulder has all the earmarks of "smart" growth, and the place became increasingly unlivable. Unless, I suppose one had gobs of money with which to smooth the paths.
Today I went down the mountain to the small city/town below. It still has many of the charms of pre-madness America. But the same forces are at work there too. Unless one got in before inflation there is no way an average worker could afford a home there. This is true almost all over Colorado.
I was reading today that similar forces may have been at work that drove people out into the desert to become hermits. It hardly negates what the desert fathers did, but it makes sense that economic/political forces were also forcing their hand. As always.
DPT- I have heard of Distant Neighbors. I would like to read it. I have read both Snyder and Berry for a while, so it would be interesting to see what they would have to say to one another. Thank you for the reminder.
As for Retrosuburbia, I will have to find it at a library as it currently goes for a pretty penny on Amazon.
-Jack
You don't have to buy the book.... I have it and it is technical. You can easily get the outline of his ideas from interviews and video presentations if you are curious. here is a page with many links: https://retrosuburbia.com/media/
I've been involved in permaculture groups where i live for years. It is far healthier than "regular" suburban life but also it is not catching on and losing ground to the machine all the time. I believe the fact is, as you and many have been writing, this must be cored around a spiritual center. We don't have that here.... not now, not within the permaculture-oriented groups. To actually hold ground against "for profit" projects would be revolutionary, to actually produce a significant portion of our food would be miraculous. Holmgren talks about this vision spreading as economic collapse sets in.... people cannot be convinced to do anything at scale until they have no other options. That may be the bottom line.
Clara
Though I have never been a part of permaculture groups, etc., what you are saying is consistent with what I have seen in other contexts. It interests me to try and dig further into the psychology of it, though even so, I might not get all that deep. The philosophy of the machine goes deep and motivates us even when we don't think it is. It is a constant struggle to get out of its gravitational pull. My own caffeine intake being one small instance of it and the assumption of continual productivity.
But as options narrow having a more fully articulated vision may become more attractive to those who may dismiss it now. "Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he". In that I see all of our various attempts to do so as worthwhile. Mustard seeds. I don't know. It's the best I've got.
Thank you for the link. As someone who has spent far too many years of his life in suburbia, and knowing the pleasant wasteland that it often can be, the idea of transforming it into a garden is very appealing. Maybe that's fanciful, given the current mindset and zoning laws. But who knows?
without getting into a long story, my husband and I have been involved the town politics level. He applied for a position on the planning board because one opened up and someone suggested he should. The selectmen have to appoint members. One particular selectman was adamant about keeping Sandy off the board and he spluttered about why, but his final, clinching statement was, "He's against growth!!". That pretty much disqualifies him as a 'serious person'. The zoning in my town will not be changed for the better, but only to allow the machine to gobble up more. They are currently pushing for something called "smart growth" and High density housing development. They will say all the right things about walkable communities, town centers, and green belts.... but in practice it is just helping the developers take more. We have given up on the idea of influencing at that level... although many people agreed with us those who hold power are not about to let go of lucrative opportunitites. Sorry to vent so much gloom. I really put a lot of energy into this stuff and I'm still a little bitter.
Clara
You are already aware of this, I imagine, but the whole growth mania is a Ponzi scheme. Once started they are unable to turn it off lest the whole thing collapse. Which it will anyway, but later, when the politicians who caused it have long left the scene. As far as I can tell, this is happening on all levels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IsMeKl-Sv0
Which is why I believe the only plausible response is to get out, if one can. Start to build something anti-fragile to survive it. The suburbs as they stand now don't stand a chance at surviving. Perhaps the whole transition out of growth mania won't be Leibowitzian, or the Road, but it will probably be more than a little bit rough.
I say this, of course, as someone without any real skills and no capital to my name to start such an endeavor. It's Way of the Pilgrim time for me!! :)
yup, I agree.
oh, I am hardly a pollyanna about all of this. I saw the same type of thing happen in Boulder. Anytime they affix "smart" in front of something it's time to brace for something really dumb. Boulder has all the earmarks of "smart" growth, and the place became increasingly unlivable. Unless, I suppose one had gobs of money with which to smooth the paths.
Today I went down the mountain to the small city/town below. It still has many of the charms of pre-madness America. But the same forces are at work there too. Unless one got in before inflation there is no way an average worker could afford a home there. This is true almost all over Colorado.
I was reading today that similar forces may have been at work that drove people out into the desert to become hermits. It hardly negates what the desert fathers did, but it makes sense that economic/political forces were also forcing their hand. As always.